Wendy and Amy ponder Mary Gordon's superb short story "Ugly." Themes of judgment, pink roses, an antique chair, and poetry are served up with a pretty pink prosecco. Pop a cork to seeing beauty everywhere!
Next Episode: Brit Bennett's The Vanishing Half
Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to our episodes.
Introduction of Bubbly, Prose, and Podcast – 00:00:00
Catching up | La Gioiosa Tasting – 00:00:44
Author and Short Story Information – 00:07:27
Main Character Introduction – 00:16:13
Brief Summary with Spoilers – 00:16:39
Handful of Hyperbole
1) Theme: Judgement based on appearance – 00:20:39
2) Symbols – Chair and Rose – 00:24:30
https://www.dogfordstudios.com/symbolism-chair-art/
3) Voodoo Name Book – Laura and Lois – 00:29:49
4) Random – Poetry in “Ugly” – 00:31:11
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43880/a-song-when-june-is-past-the-fading-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45441/song-go-lovely-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43682/the-sick-rose
Closing and Outro – 00:40:55
Next Episode: Brit Bennett’s novel The Vanishing Half
Wendy and Amy ponder Mary Gordon's superb short story "Ugly." Themes of judgment, pink roses, an antique chair, and poetry are served up with a pretty pink prosecco. Pop a cork to seeing beauty everywhere!
Next Episode: Brit Bennett's The Vanishing Half
Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to our episodes.
Introduction of Bubbly, Prose, and Podcast – 00:00:00
Catching up | La Gioiosa Tasting – 00:00:44
Author and Short Story Information – 00:07:27
Main Character Introduction – 00:16:13
Brief Summary with Spoilers – 00:16:39
Handful of Hyperbole
1) Theme: Judgement based on appearance – 00:20:39
2) Symbols – Chair and Rose – 00:24:30
https://www.dogfordstudios.com/symbolism-chair-art/
3) Voodoo Name Book – Laura and Lois – 00:29:49
4) Random – Poetry in “Ugly” – 00:31:11
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43880/a-song-when-june-is-past-the-fading-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45441/song-go-lovely-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43682/the-sick-rose
Closing and Outro – 00:40:55
Next Episode: Brit Bennett’s novel The Vanishing Half
Prosecco N Prose | Season 2 | Episode 17 | “Ugly” by Mary Gordon
Co-Hosts: Wendy (W) | Amy (A)
February 03, 2021
Introduction of Bubbly, Prose, and Podcast – 00:00:00
Catching up | La Gioiosa Tasting – 00:00:44
Author and Short Story Information – 00:07:27
Main Character Introduction – 00:16:13
Brief Summary with Spoilers – 00:16:39
Handful of Hyperbole
1) Theme: Judgement based on appearance – 00:20:39
2) Symbols – Chair and Rose – 00:24:30
https://www.dogfordstudios.com/symbolism-chair-art/
3) Voodoo Name Book – Laura and Lois – 00:29:49
4) Random – Poetry in “Ugly” – 00:31:11
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43880/a-song-when-june-is-past-the-fading-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45441/song-go-lovely-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43682/the-sick-rose
Closing and Outro – 00:40:55
Next Episode: Brit Bennett’s novel The Vanishing Half
-------------
00:00:00
Wendy (W): Welcome to Prosecco and Prose Episode 17
Amy (A): This week’s prosecco is La Gioiosa.
W: This week’s prose is the short story “Ugly” by Mary Gordon.
* * * intro * * *
00:00:44
A: I feel like I’ve been waiting forever to discuss this story.
W: I agree! I mean it seems ages ago you sent me this wonderful short and now we finally…finally get to talk about it. But first … how about a little on this pretty, pink prosecco?
A: I’m just as excited about this little bottle of blushing deliciousness…. A first for us…. A pink prosecco! This is going to be so much fun. You found this one at our favorite place to stock up—Costco. I remember the scrolls.
W: Yes, I did. I was super excited to find a pink prosecco. This La Gioiosa.
A: Always a treat to get your epic scrolls...you know... those were initially my thing.
W: I know!
A: And, I always seem to get them at the oddest times when I can’t respond. Didn’t you say, though, that the bubbly was like only $9, which sort of fits our budget perfectly.
W: Yes, it was. Though I did find in my research it averages around $14 a bottle.
A: Still a fair price.
W: Totally agree. Now for the basics … Vivino rates it a 4.1 …
A: Wow! That’s really good!
W: Very good. 11% alcohol … a DOC, most common of Proseccos … and it’s a Brut.
A: Which means it’s on the driest, or the lowest sugar end. Interesting ummmm… I just automatically think a pink would be sweeter.
W: I know. And I agree. I guess we shall find out. The pink color comes from the addition of 10-15% of Pinot Noir grapes; this adds the pink color and rosy flavor. Before we taste, just a couple of things I found about this prosecco.
A: Alright. Though I might sneak a taste while you’re rambling, I mean, sharing info. The smell is just calling my name...and these bubbles...
W: Ramble? Thanks. But, go ahead. The smell is nice … it’s got this ahhh. Hmmm! It’s a little tart smelling. I can definitely smell small red fruits like…I don’t know…strawberries…or something like that. A little rhubarb maybe. I don’t know. And there is definitely a kind of rose smell.
A: Oh, I get the rose smell too...It smells like my mom’s strawberry rhubarb pie...or jam?
W: Oh that’s perfect!
A: Oh it’s so good...this is going to be interesting...Now what do you have for our fellow prosecco connoisseurs?
W: Well, the label says La Gioiosa et Amorosa and that translates to joyful and loving, or more literally, joyful and amorous.
A: Oooh! Saucy! I love it.
W: Before you get too excited, it’s in reference to the ancient name of the land in Italy where prosecco grapes are grown, the Treviso province.
A: You know...we really need to take a visit to this lovely land of our libation.
W: I’m all for it. But first … as early as the 13th century this area was one of the wealthiest in Italy.
A: Of course. They had the prosecco on lock.
W: Their wealth actually came from its rich farmland …
A: Which, might I add, grew delicious prosecco grapes …
W: And its citizens were so successful they were often able to enjoy a bit of leisure time.
A: And some of their prosecco, one would presume.
W: One would. They become famous for their country villas and royal courts where poets would compose love poetry, and young knights would practice the arts of chivalry, jousting and horsemanship. It was such a happy place it became known as gioiosa et amorosa, “the land of joy and love.” I got this from the La Gioiosa Blog, an educational site devoted to prosecco culture.
A: I am so devoted to prosecco culture.
W: Oh me, too!
A: Especially the culture where we drink it.
W: Ditto! Dante even wrote about the area and some of its famous residents in his Divine Comedy and it remains, even today, one of Italy's richest areas.
A: Sounds like one of the happiest places on earth. I’d be very happy to get a taste of this pretty pink stuff.
W: I thought you had.
A: Maybe a little slipped in my mouth between rambles…
W: And? What have you got?
A: First, this pale pink is really so pretty.
W: It is. It’s such a nice contrast to our story title … “Ugly.”
A: Perfect. Okay … it’s different than what we’re used to. Now I’m tasting the strawberry and maybe…I’m getting a little bit of mango...sort of tropical.
W: Hmmm! I’m not sure what I was expecting. Some kind of red fruit for sure and I’ve got that…I do have … you know it’s kind of…it’s kind of like a raspberry…strawberry like Icee but tart…or something like that.
A: But can you taste the tropical?
W: I don’t know if I can taste the tropical. Let me try it. So, I don’t know that I taste it so much as …you have this essence of it. I can just see the beach and a palm tree.
A: I think it’s when I breathe in…when I’m drinking it that I can kind of taste…I can kind of smell it…put it all together.
W: You know as it gets a little more open in the glass I can smell it now as there is a very strawberry smell to it.
A: Yep, maybe that’s where the tropical is coming from.
W: So...
A: It’s our first pink prosecco …I’m a novel fan.
W: I see what you did there … novel fan. But I agree, I love it. Might have to revisit Costco with my wagon.
A: I’m going to do a half and half box but you better get there before I do with my Volvo semi...
W: You mean your hearse?
A: Whatever. It holds more prosecco than your city-girl wagon. I just hope Costco continues to stock this.
W: And I agree, more pink prosecco on the shelves, please. I read the owner of La Gioiosa, who is a board member for the Prosecco DOC Consortium …
A: Ohhh! Now that’s a board we need to be on!
W: Most definitely! Anyway, he started advocating for the creation of a Prosecco DOC Rosé back in 2009.
A: Such a great idea. I wonder why it took so long?
W: Who knows? But here we are. Prosecco DOC Rosé must be a vintage-dated wine, with millesimato, which means “vintage” and means grapes of a single harvest or year.
A: Hmmm … really interesting stuff. Any pairing notes before we wrap this up and get to our story?
W: Sure. It’s ideal for aperitifs, with shellfish and raw or fried fish, finger foods, and Mediterranean first courses.
A: Raw fish … makes me think of sushi...again I’m advocating for Momo’s in Old Town Alexandria...I had to do Fresh Market fish today…but a good sashimi plate might suit this bubbly well.
W: Oooh yeah! Love sashimi! … I feel like I’m always trying to find a good sushi pairing. Definitely want to try that.
A: If you guys are enjoying our attempts at being sommeliers, let us know. It’s so easy to rate and review wherever you listen to our podcast and it means so much to us. Let’s move on to our author.
00:07:27
W: And it’s free and helps us get new listeners. So much appreciated. Now on to our author.
A: Mary Gordon is from New York and is the author of several novels, novellas, short story collections, and nonfiction works. In 2008 Ms. Gordon was named the Official State Author of New York. She is currently the Millicent C. McIntosh Professor of English and Writing at Barnard College.
W: Maybe we should have our own author award for the end of each season…
A: Oh, great idea...we could call it the Pop a Cork and Read Award.
W: Hmmmm… I like that, and we could also do a prosecco award … but then we’d have to add to our official hashtag #popacorkandread.
A: Or we could add a new hashtag … popacorkandswallow?
W: Amy! That’s not the aesthetic we are going for.
A: Calm down there, fancy-pants … just thinking-out-loud … and you know that S#%^’s funny.
W: You do have a way with words. I’ll think about it. But you are on to something, we do have several authors who would qualify, but back to our author. I read this from Wiki from a former student, now a novelist, and absolutely loved it, speaking of Gordon - “She was the only good writing teacher at Barnard, so I just kept taking her class over and over.”
A: I love that as well. I’m sure she’s not the only good writing teacher at the college, but sometimes a teacher just connects with a student and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a favorite teacher that inspired you. I know I have mine.
W: Completely agree. I definitely have mine. Ms. Gordon has two adult children and lives with her puggle in Manhattan. There is so much more to Ms. Gordon than our very brief intro, so be sure to check out her website. if you are interested in learning more. You can include a link in our show notes, Amy?
A: Of course. Now we reached out to Ms. Gordon, and she was gracious enough to answer a few questions for us … We both really loved this short and were curious about her inspiration for “Ugly” … I always love learning this about an author’s writing; it’s like knowing a deep dark secret.
W: It is. And she told us her inspiration was an antique dealer from whom she bought a wonderful chair. You have a lot wonderful antiques, Amy, do you have a favorite and a story for it?
A: You know I do! I have several stories...several fun pieces...hmm...which one to share?
W: But before you get too excited about what you’re going to pick, can you tell me about that beautiful red church bench I get to see each time I walk through your front door…that’s the one I want to know.
A: Oh Perfect! Perfect, perfect! That’s perfect. That’s such a funny and sentimental story, and so appropriate to elicit a few laughs and also to remember my Aunt Nadia.
W: Do tell.
A: Josh and I were stationed at Fort Bragg, NC in the late 90s... a time when I started really collecting old things. He calls some of it junk. But I call it treasures.
W: Right!
A: I wish I could remember the name of the antique village thoguh for our listeners...there are so many in the Carolinas—but this one was such a big deal for the milspouses.
W: We can post it later if you remember.
A: I know I have the receipt somewhere. But I had to have this old rickety red barnyard church pew... it was like double the length of my Honda CRV.
W: Yes
A: Didn’t want to take the chance of losing my find to someone else. So…of course I bought it and just knew Aunt Nad would figure it out the logistics of getting it home.
W: Impulse buys rarely disappoint! And you did have back up with your aunt.
A: Exactly. First though...you need to know Aunt Nadia was a hiking and climbing enthusiast… She was a writer too...but a tiny thing, barely 5 feet tall but strong as an ox.
W: I’m picturing your bench right now in a CRV and a tiny little woman…okay…continue!
A: She literally jerry-rigged my pew into the hatchback, anchored herself around it...you know for weight balanced...so it wouldn’t snap in the middle...a large part of the pew was hanging out the end of the CRV...and we literally crawled home at about 15-20 mph... I can still picture the line of traffic ticked off behind us. I remember her saying her body was numb...she needed a whiskey Coke!
W: Oh Geeze! For sure!
A: But on a more serious note...I will never forget her strength that day, and in the future days of her life when cancer made its presence known. It still slays me though that I can’t remember the name of the antique shop...went there all the time with a bunch of military spouses.
W: I’m sure it’ll pop into your mind. Maybe you should blog the stories of all your antiques. I’m sure they all come with amazing stories.
A: That’s a great idea. Well now that I’m emotional about Aunt Nadia, I want to know about your favorite antique or piece of the past.
W: I don’t have any antiques…
A: You’re very modern.
W: Yeah! Yes definitely! Though I do have a beautiful crocheted sweater from my Grandma, my Mom’s Mom, and her strand of pearls.
A: You are a pearl girl! And what lovely mementos to have. Okay back to the story...You know I had to ask Ms. Gordon about take-aways and the ending.
W: I know. You weren’t exactly feeling the ending, but that’s life, it doesn't always go the way we hope or think, even in a story.
A: I know. I know! But still, I can always enjoy the story and ponder on an alternate ending.
W: True
A: Now, for her take-away, and I’m going to quote her directly because she said it perfectly “Oh dear, I never know what people will take away … I just wanted people to think about the power of beauty, and that there are many different kinds of beauty.”
W: As the saying goes … beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
A: Yup. And as there will be spoilers to share...I’m going to save Ms. Gordon’s answer about the ending for when we get to our summary. But there was something from her website that caught your eye, Wendy … let me find it because I’d like to quote it. I’ve got it on a notecard here. I just so enjoyed the humor in it … here it is...here it is … “Mary overcame the deficiencies of her pre-college education and came to accept that Leonard Cohen was not quite as good as Yeats.” And you, Wendy, are also a fan of Leonard Cohen.
W: I am. And I was curious to know what was her favorite piece, I guess I’ll say … as he’s a poet, sing-songwriter, novelist … I’m a fan of the music.
A: I have to admit, I wasn’t familiar with him. Ms. Gordon said her favorite was Suzanne, which started as a poem and became a song.
W: Yes, it's about a platonic relationship he had with a dancer. It’s really pretty sung … even a bit melancholy. I discovered Leonard Cohen, his music was in the movie Natural Born Killers and I loved his gravelly voice. Which is a bit different from his voice in earlier music.
A: Do you have a favorite?
W: Hmmm … I played his album “The Future” quite a lot, Waiting for the Miracle was a favorite, which was directly from the movie … but I was intrigued to go back and listen and I’m not sure I can choose now. I’m in Leonard Cohen overload! And I’m not mad about it.
A: You know I was intrigued and had to take a listen, for research sake, and his music almost has this quality of the spoken word.
W: It does. I really liked listening and hearing the change in his voice. I’m an even bigger fan now. He’s quite a handsome, dapper fellow … and his voice! But this isn’t about Leonard Cohen. What else did Ms. Gordon share?
A: Well, there was this funny line at the end of her biography on her webpage, and you know how I love a sense of humor …
W: I do. I believe her daughter wrote it, correct? The biography?
A: Yes, yes. I think so. Ms. Gordon has two grandchildren and, I quote, “She would like you to know, that while it was nice of you to have read her biography, you are not as interesting as her grandsons.”
W: I remember you got a kick out of that and remember I had told you well, my parents said their grandkids were way more fun than us kids …
A: Right, so we thought...why not ask her what is so wonderful about being a grandmother.
W: And her answer was great, you know maybe we should interview a bunch of grandparents and then write a book of their answers …
A: That’s not a bad idea … Ms. Gordon said this was the easiest question and the best thing is that grandchildren are…get this…delicious … great to hug. And you’re not responsible for their entire moral and intellectual information. You’re always the good guy.
W: I’m not going to lie … that sounds like a total win-win situation.
A: I agree. One last thing before we dive into our story.
W: You’ve got more?
A: Yup. [laughing] Let’s toast a Cheers to Ms. Gordon and to this great story!
W: Definitely! Cheers! Let’s get to these great characters.
00:16:13
A: This being a short story, we have just a few … Laura, our main character. She works in Human Resources for a company that manufactures herbal remedies.
W: Lois, the proprietor of the antiques store, and she becomes a friend to Laura.
A: And Hugh, the boyfriend. While it’s not exactly clear how long Hugh and Laura have been together, they have been talking about marriage for two years, but more seriously as of late.
00:16:39
W: Hugh … the architect boyfriend who knows more than Laura about beauty and aesthetic.
A: He certainly thinks he does. But before I get started with our summary, this short is about a 30-40 minute read and we put a link to it in the show notes.
W: It is also available in the 2017 edition of The Best American Short Stories.
A: Right. Now spoilers ahead. Laura is a quintessential New York girl, working a Human Resources job in Connecticut at a company that manufactures herbal remedies. She is quite good at her job and is being sent to Monroe, Missouri to help resolve a productivity lag at that branch...basically a PR issue. She has never been to the Midwest, and in fact, never wanted to go.
W: But, if she can fix this problem, there is a sizable bonus in it for her and when she gets back, she will be moving in with Hugh, and this bonus makes him quite happy as they are on the hunt for new furniture.
A: So, Laura heads to Missouri and on her third morning there, a pink vase in an antique shop window catches her eye. Her temporary corporate digs are so awful, and she thinks she might feel better if she had one nice thing, just one beautiful thing to look at.
W: Enter Lois, our shopkeeper, who agrees that everyone should have one beautiful thing. Laura buys the vase, and taking a look around the shop, spots a chair that brings a line of poetry to her mind and a lightness of breath to her body.
A: Laura buys the chair, and she and Lois head off to get it repaired. It was really sad, as no one in the Missouri branch is overly eager to socialize with Laura, but luckily Laura and Lois strike up a friendship. And before too long, Lois is offering her deals on dishes and an apartment at the lake.
W: Which Lois is happy to furnish for Laura. Laura settles in, dreaming of future family dinners with her newly acquired rose printed china and enjoying morning sunrises at her perfectly furnished lakeside apartment on her beautiful chair.
A: But her time is temporary and Hugh soon arrives, a week early, much to Laura’s dismay, to help her pack up to return to New York. Hugh is very much out-of-place in the new world Laura’s created and the contrast is striking.
W: There is this really wonderful section near the end of the story on the word ugly … how Hugh brought that word into Laura’s world and the effect it has. It really breaks her bubble and takes a bit of her gioiosa.
A: It really does...and nice way to fuse in our prosecco. Laura makes her final report to the branch. And cha-ching...You know she has done an outstanding job and will be getting a ridiculously large bonus. She decides that none of the things she purchased really belong in her New York life, and after saying a final goodbye to her beautiful chair, she slips out with Hugh, back to New York.
W: And this was where you wished she had stayed because she seemed so happy.
A: Yes! And content. I was so disappointed she left, so we asked Ms. Gordon why Laura left with Hugh instead of staying, and she told us she thinks she left with the guy because living without a man is very hard, and she knows it. But she added, Laura didn't have the courage or the originality either … she didn’t admire her own choices.
W: I do think Laura doesn’t believe in herself. She feels like an imposter at her job, she gave up her Ph.D. over her dissertation … more on that later … tells herself Hugh knows more than her on appealing furniture because he’s an architect … but she did seem very happy in the lakeside apartment.
A: She did. But maybe she wouldn’t have been happy there forever.
W: Right!
A: I told Ms. Gordon that I did have a laugh at what she said about Laura leaving...again she said she left because living without a man is hard. I have almost have been single a couple times after several funny antics with my antiques… since we're on the topic of furniture...but Josh, too, said it’d be hard living without a woman.
W: Can’t live with us, can’t live without us!
A: Yup! And I think we could say it goes a bit both ways, for our guys at least. Themes?
00:20:39
W: I’m ready. What direction are you going to take us?
A: We kept coming back to this idea of judgement based on appearance.
W: Right. Laura even says, on first seeing Lois, I try not to judge people on their looks.
A: Yes, exactly. But it also lends itself to these misconceptions people make … about others...about things...about what others think.
W: Right! I mean in the first paragraph, Laura tells the reader she’s afraid someone will realize she doesn’t belong.
A: But she did. She was really good at her job. I mean it’s why she was sent to Missouri. She let others’ perceived judgements shape her belief in herself.
W: She did. She says her taste in furniture was less developed than Hugh’s … to which I thought, why say that? If it doesn’t appeal to you, it just doesn’t. Why does it have to be if it’s an $8000 dollar … it was $8000, right?
A: Yeah! Yeah! I think just the cost alone might have affected my taste!
W: Mine, too. But why does it have to be, maybe my taste isn’t refined enough? Seems a silly argument to make. You like it or you don’t. Cost shouldn’t determine whether one has taste or not. So, there was judgement there.
A: I also think Laura’s judgement of Lois’ appearance caught her by surprise initially when she heard her speak. Lois’ accent was cultivated, it was pleasant and didn’t match, in Laura’s mind, to Lois’ appearance.
W: Right. And it’s really a series of judgements from there … the dog in the doorway that might get a bit of fur on someone, how close things are in the shop, why Lois would feel Laura needs a set of dishes and a deal on them at that, even Lois running marathons is a point of judgement because Laura thinks everything else about her suggests the opposite of healthiness.
A: I sort of felt like Laura started to make less judgements about herself once she opened up to the town...to Lois...and in just having things she truly loved and found beautiful around her.
W: I did as well. She was so happy. She said she couldn’t explain it, but I think it was the freedom from judgement she was feeling. Lois certainly wasn’t judging her.
A: But then Hugh shows up! And it’s this … I mean I could physically feel it … like snap back to, as Laura puts it, reality. Hugh judges everything around her … Lois, even her name, Hugh says is ugly … the furniture, Laura’s chair, it’s hideous, a monstrosity. I think it’s such a contradictory picture to what Laura felt she created.
W: And she does call herself into question … says she was mistaking things for other things, mistaking myself for another person. As if she suddenly remembered that she can’t make judgments for herself about what she likes.
A: I’ve got a judgement, hey Hugh you piece of crap... you’re ugly. I’d go as far as saying Hugh you’re fugly...just fugly...I could say more but I don’t want to put an explicit on this episode. Hugh’s personality though, the way he treats Laura...I was over it quickly.
W: Yes, while I agree with you on that, Laura’s life isn’t there; it’s not in Missouri. Sure, she let herself become absorbed in it while she was there, almost like taking on a new persona, but when it comes to the end, she can’t wait to leave. She doesn’t even say goodbye to Lois.
A: Now that upset me too…she couldn’t wait to leave. Hugh is there making judgments about all of her lovely things. I felt like she just wanted to get him out of there before he tarnished you know that deep piece of herself or embarrassed her.
W: Wow! That’s pretty deep, and I have no argument on that.
A: Good.
W: But …
A: What? You said you have no argument.
W: I don’t. I just want to say, she does speak to the chair, when Hugh is in the car and she’s alone. It’s almost like an apology, for not defending it against Hugh’s harsh judgment. She says you are beautiful … but … you wouldn’t want to belong to me.
A: Well, no, I agree. Not if she’s going back with Hugh.
W: Okay okay! Symbols?
00:24:30
A: Yes, let’s move on. I’d like to start where we just ended, not with Hugh but with the chair. I had to “word nerd” this … did you know the word chair was referenced 30 times and the pronouns specifically referencing Laura’s chair were even more prevalent in this piece.
W: Did not realize that, but it was quite central to the story. I loved the description of it, when Lois printed off the fact sheet for it …remember? I won’t give every detail away, but it was from the 1880s to 1890s, covered in a pale green, patterned damask fabric.
A: The description, to me, read so regal. Now in my research, I found a photographer’s website that spoke of chair symbology the best.
W: Can’t wait to hear what you found.
A: Okay so, Edward M. Fielding, of Dogford Studios…I’ll put his link in the show notes, guys…took this beautiful picture of an old wooden antique chair facing a window and wrote about the chair as a symbol. It really just...it just left a sadness in my heart when I focused on that photo...it looked so empty...so alone. https://www.dogfordstudios.com/symbolism-chair-art/
W: A great picture can do that. My sister is quite an accomplished photographer and some of her photos, wow! I’m going to have to check out his website though.
A: It’s gorgeous…yet simple…but yes photography is like literature, to me, in so many ways. In his blog article “Symbolism of the Empty Chair in Art,” Fielding notes that he uses empty chairs in his photography to “imply human occupation of space—past or present. Or the absence of humans.”
W: Hmmm interesting.
A: He also writes that a “chair can symbolize loss or the hope of a return…imply loneliness or a restful place to sit down after a long day…and can provide evidence of nearby human companionship.”
W: If I may … you just mentioned something that jarred my mind...human companionship…Laura and Lois engender the chair as a female, you know a personality…sort of like a friend or companion. Phrases like “she’s yours, a real beauty, she was mine.”
A: They did. But Laura does waffle a bit throughout the story, sometimes the chair is a she, sometimes it’s an it … I’m curious to hear our listeners thoughts on what they felt might be the reason for using both the gendered and non-gendered pronouns. For me, it gave the chair so much more existence than just being a piece of furniture.
W: It really did.
A: Fielding writes that a chair can have character; it implies commitment to a place, to create a home, and we see that in all three of the chair’s homes in this short.
W: To me, a chair can also mean power; I’m just thinking back to our last episode in terms of royalty.
A: Fielding addresses that too. He said…ummmm…a chair can symbolize power—like "a king’s throne” or the “head of the table.” But it can also “become a familiar ‘friend’ in a lonely life.” I encourage you to check out his blogsite...beautiful photography too.
W: As if I need any encouragement to go research! But we’d love to hear some of your thoughts on the chair. Go ahead and give us some feedback via email or any of our social media.
A: Or even in the review field if you listen to ahhh Apple podcasts, but let’s move onto the symbol that spoke to you, Wendy, and obviously to Laura as it was the proposed topic of her dissertation—the rose.
W: Right. I think when most people think of a rose, they think of love, passion, beauty.
A: Agree. Agree.
W: And those things are all true. But color, as you well know, Amy, also plays a big part in the symbology of roses. Laura buys a vase that is a deep rose color, and the rose patterns on the china Lois wants her to have are also deep pink in color.
A: So not talking passionate love here.
W: No. Deep pink conveys gratitude and appreciation … it’s a way to say thank you.
A: I feel that Laura had an appreciation for the vase and the china. And Lois is thanking Laura in a way because you know she knows Laura will appreciate the china.
W: I think so. Pink, as a whole, is femininity, elegance, refinement … Laura was filling her space with these pretty, feminine things … something that seems will be lacking when she takes up residence with Hugh.
A: Exactly. So, a bit of gratitude that she has this opportunity to express herself so freely. You know without judgment, one could even say.
W: One could. Now roses also mean secrecy or confidentiality. Ancient Romans hung roses from ceilings of banquet halls and it was understood anything said under the influence of wine was confidential.
A: I think we should hang some roses in the studio. Or maybe this bottle of rosé prosecco …
W: Except we publish what we say here.
A: Oh...right. Never mind.
W: In the Middle Ages, roses were hung from ceilings of meeting rooms … it was understood everyone under the roses was sworn to secrecy.
A: Now you’ve got my thoughts working on overdrive here. Thinking a bit on her dissertation topic and on these things, she bought, she did it far away from her life in New York. She kind of made those purchases in secret. In confidence only to Lois and herself.
W: Until Hugh shows up, anyway. But yeah, I was thinking the same thing. And then when she doesn’t bring anything back. Not even the china which she pictured using with family around. Only she used it. In secret.
A: I know. It’s kind of sad.
W: Yeah. Let’s talk about these two names though, Laura and Lois.
00:29:49
A: Okay … Laura’s are known to be good communicators, organizers, and have great intellectual potential.
W: That makes sense … Our Laura works in HR and I remember reading she was initially hired as a technical writer to turn their scientific jargon into readable prose.
A: Right. Laura’s also like to bring harmony into their social situations … think of how our Laura ended up talking Hugh out of the bean couch. Ewww! Ugly!
W: That was a monstrosity and how she interacted with Lois on the drive to get the chair fixed … she didn’t know the people Lois was talking about, but still tried to respond as encouragingly as she could.
A: And especially in her job. I mean she was relocated because of her great people skills. Now Lois means “keen mind” and they have a good eye for detail.
W: Wow! Well, certainly fits our antique shop proprietor.
A: It gets even better … a Lois is confident and offers creative gifts.
W: The rose china! Technically not a gift, but still, she knew Laura would like it.
A: Exactly. And finally, a Lois takes care of her health. Now remember she was a marathoner in her color coordinated running outfits.
W: Right down to the socks. I don’t think ours are quite to her level …
A: Well, mine is! You just have to be confident. Like a Lois.
W: Like a Lois...no game today...we absolutely have to cover this poetry.
A: Oh we do!
00:31:11
W: Laura had wanted to focus on three poems about roses for her Ph.D. dissertation.
A: Yes … she wanted to use the poems … let me fin it…my quote … here it is … “she wanted to use three poems to examine questions of time, desire, beauty, death and see how the image of the rose could illustrate the differences these questions raised.” That sounds really challenging.
W: Yeah…I think that’s above my poetry paygrade.
A: Okay there, Private Prosecco.
W: I can handle that!
A: We aren’t going that deep, but more in the direction of relating the poems to the story and our two characters. And we haven’t covered any poetry since last season when we recorded the episode on Where the Crawdad’s Sing by Delia Owen, so you know I had to.
W: I know, that was episode 10, right? Don’t forget we went heavy on poetry in Maria Reva’s short “Letter of Apology” in episode...ummm….
A: Four!
W: Right, right! I loved that Ukrainian piece.
A: Me, too. Laura tells the reader that these poems still come to her in thought, and I thought we could start with these fused lines of the three poems referenced in Gordon’s short.
W: Alright … I think I can handle that.
A: Good. These lines, it seemed, at least to me…are a cryptic message. Something for the serious reader to unpack.
W: Always love a cryptic message. Definitely wanted to explore this. These poems of the abandoned dissertation. Guys, we are referencing Thomas Carew’s poem “A Song: When June is past, the fading rose,” Edmund Waller’s “Song: Go, Lovely Rose,” and William Blake’s “The Sick Rose.” All in that order. Amy you’ll put a link to all three poems in the show notes?
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43880/a-song-when-june-is-past-the-fading-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45441/song-go-lovely-rose
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43682/the-sick-rose
A: I’ll do that. Let me read the short passage of fused poetry, and we’ll take a stab at what we think Gordon was trying to tell us--the reader.
W: How about I read the passage and you get us started … this poetry stuff still makes me a bit jittery…
A: Sort of like what mythology does to me? You okay, Wendy? You’re starting to sweat a little…
W: …ladies don’t sweat, we glisten. And I’m fine … back to the poetry from the story … ‘‘Ask me no more where Jove bestows / When June is past, the lovely rose . . . Go lovely rose / Tell her that wastes her time and me, / That now she knows, / When I resemble her to thee, / How sweet and fair she seems to be . . . O Rose thou art sick. The invisible worm, / That flies in the night / in the howling storm.’’ So, what was your take?
A: Wow! I’m impressed! First and foremost, for reference just in case you are confused...if you look at the poetry pieces separately…Gordon took the first two lines in Carew’s piece and the first stanza in both Waller’s and Blake’s pieces to make her fused message—and possibly cryptic message.
W: I did see that and our listeners can follow along if they look up the poems in our transcript notes.
A: Good idea. So, in Carew’s two lines: “Ask me no more where Jove bestows / When June is past, the lovely rose” …Gordon changed the original wording from the fading rose, to the lovely rose. Now I’m thinking that was not a typo and more of her using her writer’s privilege to put our mind...you know the reader's mind...in a frame or mindset of beauty.
W: This is why you are our poet guru. I totally missed that. I was more focused on recalling that Jove was Jupiter or Zeus depending if you were Roman or Greek. You know the thing I understood.
A: [laughing] Well these lines speak to me by saying as the seasons change and time passes…you know...June/summer being our prettier months, that there is still beauty within…it’s not a fading beauty…just a changing beauty; and...it can still be lovely. Maybe the rose is representative of a person…maybe Lois?
W: Or maybe the chair, but it could be Lois. Lois may not have been considered, by Laura, to be physically beautiful, but she was a beautiful person in her actions. The chair, for both Laura and Lois, was definitely a thing of beauty, still evident even in its current worn and repair-needing state.
A: Nice connection, Wendy…Okay…so the next lines and these are from the first stanza of Waller’s poem. Can I read these?
W: Yes, of course!
A: Go lovely rose / Tell her that wastes her time and me, / That now she knows, / When I resemble her to thee, / How sweet and fair she seems to be.
W: Nothing was changed in the text of the poem in these lines. No writer’s privilege needed here.
A: These lines gave me a sense of...a feeling of not wasting time in life. Accept what you are…what you’ve become…just know we all have beauty to offer — it may be internal, it may be external or both. Shed your outside worries; just be.
W: Maybe shed what doesn’t serve you? Sorry, my inner yogi here, but I had actually written this thought … let me find it … yes, here is it, and you actually said it, Lois is the rose. But maybe it’s not so simple as this is that, but could Lois be Laura’s conscience, in some sense?
A: Well Lois does have a read on Laura, and I also think it’s telling that Laura came to Missouri with nothing. She shed her New Yorkness.
W: And this is Laura’s time to fill her life with things she finds sweet and fair, to quote our poem. It’s just this thought of Lois as a part of Laura’s conscience … she seems to know exactly what Laura needs, better than Laura. Getting her in the shop where Laura sees the chair, the rose china, the simple lakeside apartment furnished by Lois … I know we said this as a judgment, but maybe it’s not that, it's Laura's true conscience, or at least a part of her subconscious. Sorry, I think I just rambled a tangent.
A: That's the beauty of poetry, I mean it speaks to each of us differently. I might add on to that, thinking of Lois as representing a conscience, maybe she’s trying to get Laura to see how simple…how beautiful and content her life in Monroe really could be. She was fitting in.
W: She was!
A: I think you’ll see where I am going with this in Blake’s poem.
W: And she was. And she was happy, in a way she couldn’t explain. Let’s get to Blake’s poem before I think of some other tangent.
A: Now Gordon uses the first stanza of this poem.
W: Let me read it: “O Rose thou art sick. The invisible worm, / That flies in the night / in the howling storm.’’
A: Here Rose does seem like a person, or is at least personified, like the speaker of the poem addressing the reader and the word rose here is capitalized too.
W: I didn’t. Maybe the Rose is Lois here?
A: I’m thinking more now in the lines of Laura; she’s sick…not in the sense of physical sickness...but ill to the truth of what is simple and beautiful in life. And the invisible worm is poison, maybe even dissatisfaction or maybe even Hugh—Laura’s boyfriend…he arrives at night, a week early, and the car’s headlights seem to wake Laura up.
W: And she’s torn. She feels grateful, but yet doesn’t want him there. In her place, her space.
A: With good reason though. He’s the howling storm.
W: Kind of…
A: He insults people, things, the city with really, well, ugly words. He destroyed the beauty that Laura had built there.
W: He did, like a storm…remember how he judged Lois…talked about her appearance…didn’t even shake her hand. Like she was vile.
A: Oh yea…and Laura doesn’t understand why she doesn’t defend herself. Her rights to her own taste.
W: It’s like the author told us in our correspondence… Laura didn’t have the courage to stay...the courage to stand up for beauty.
A: I think you’ve nailed it but listen to this…the last part of Blake’s poem...the second stanza that we don’t get in Gordon’s short story...I think it truly answers our question of why Laura left Monroe...let me read it. “Has found out thy bed / Of crimson joy/ And his dark secret love / Does thy life destroy.”
W: Laura!
A: Laura!
W: Laura!
A: Laura!
W: You left the beauty and contentment of Monroe … the chair … the rose china … the vase … the lake … the sunrises … for a man…For HUGH!
A: Hugh!
W: Your dark secret love who gives such crimson joy. Oh…Laura…you are afraid of your own happiness.
A: Exactly! Gold star for you, my dear friend!
W: I love getting a gold stars. I think I need to start a chart. If I may add one more thought …
A: Why not? We’re having so much fun.
W: Cuz it’s going to be totally different. But maybe Lois had a plan all along.
A: Hmmm!
W: Maybe she could read Laura even better than all that. Maybe she was hoping to get her lake place furnished on Laura’s dime…
A: Come on!
W: Knew she wouldn’t take them back to New York and secretly wanted all this for herself?
A: Hmmm … I don’t think that’s Lois’ nature … she has too good of a soul, but it is an interesting take. And with that note …
W: No more tangents for me?
A: I think we’ve tangented enough.
W: Alright, I suppose. I loved this piece, but I did feel so sad for Laura…for Lois…for that beautiful lake apartment…Just like her dissertation, Laura gave up on the beauty of the rose.
A: She gave up on herself! I’m not a huge Hugh fan...such a jerk...but hey...scrolling through my photo receipts on my phone…
W: Oh you found it!
A: I did! I did…while you were rambling on…I found my receipt for my red bench...I bought it at...let me enlarge this…I found it at the Red Rooster Antiques, oh yeah…oh yeah…1809 Dunn Road, Fayetteville, NC 28301...let me repeat that address…1809 Dunn Road, Fayetteville, NC 28301…
W: Red Rooster Antiques, you said?
A: Red Rooster Antiquest… bought it Sept 27, 1999…$143.10 (military discount noted)
W: Ahhh, Amy...the Googlewebs says that place is closed. Look....
A: No! Oh my gosh...such a happy place… that is so sad.
W: Here have some prosecco. I’m just glad you didn’t say UGLY. You know, this rosé prosecco really was a pretty perfect pair to our rose filled story.
A: I have to agree it really was. But like this prosecco and this prose, all good things must come to an end...we hope you enjoyed this episode...if so, let us know...hope you’ll also join us for our next episode, in two weeks, when we will discuss Brit Bennett’s The Vanishing Half.
00:42:25 – Outro