The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald

Wendy and Amy discuss The Great Gatsby affair, / Can Gatsby win Daisy, make a love triangle a pair? / Or are they two star-crossed lovers, doomed from the start? / Pop a cork to this classic and Gatsby’s quest for his sweetheart.

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SHOW NOTES:
Oliver Fox's "Four Pillars of Romance" article
Drunk Guys Book Club Podcast: Gatsby

Next Episode:
We will be discussing James Joyce's short story "Eveline" from the Dubliners and pair it with Tesoro della Regina Prosecco Rose

Transcript

Prosecco N Prose | Season 4 | Episode 31 | The Great Gatsby by F.S. Fitzgerald. 

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Co-hosts: Wendy and Amy

Amy (A): Welcome to Prosecco and Prose Episode 31.

Wendy (W): This week’s prosecco is Kirkland Signature Prosecco Rosé. 

A: This week’s prose is The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald.                        

 * * * INTRO * * *

W: Welcome back to the first episode of Season 4! Amy!

A: Exactly, Oh my gosh. Season 4! A belated Happy New Year to all of you lovely listeners, our friends! Wendy, how’s it already 2022, and we’re here kicking off the fourth season?

W: I have no idea, truly, but here we are, and I’m excited for this season of rosé and romance.

A: Oh, I’ve so been looking forward to this. It’s gunna be fun.

W: Now disclaimer, full disclosure. We have tried today’s prosecco, right, this Kirkland Signature Prosecco Rosé.

A: Ah a few times, actually. Just a couple. I mean, it’s right next to our other favorite bulk prosecco.

W: I know. I mean now I just buy a case of half and half when I haul my wagon to Costco.

A: Oh me, too…my wagon hearse with a loaded purse. But hey, spoiler alert, we kind of like it. 

W: No, we kind of love it!  But let's give you the basics on this Kirkland Signature Prosecco Rosé. It’s a DOC, 11%, extra dry, we like them dry, um hmmm, and the perfect price point at $6.99. 

A: Hey ring that bell. It’s like a special. It is…Costco special.  I love Costco.

W:  Now Vivino rates it a 3.7, you’ll have to stick around to see what we rate it at, right. That’s the same rating as you know their regular prosecco we know and love.

A: Okay, so the label says: “The grapes used to craft the Kirkland Signature Prosecco Rosé come from Northern Italy’s top family-owned vineyards. With fresh berry and tropical fruit flavors, this pink bubbly is ideal for festive occasions but will also pair well with a wide range of international cuisines, from Italian to Asian to classic American. Salute!”

W: Salute! That’s interesting to say the tropical. I’m going to have to think about the tropical when we taste it today. 

A: I don’t think I’ve picked up on that. 

W: I don’t think I have either, but we’re going to be more serious today. Right. But basically, they’re saying to drink it with everything, I guess.

A: Remember we read that review that said it would pair great with like fatty uh huh and salty snacks, so we have here today on our spread…what a messy spread this is…delicious spread…looks like a bear attacked us…um but we have some you know toasted coconut chips, ummm, we’ve got some variety of salted nuts, cheddar cheese, and dark chocolate, 70% cocoa and 72% cocoa the Ghirardelli. How do you say that? 

W: Ghirardelli

A: Ghirardelli, I’m not really fancy.

W: But don’t forget cucumber sandwiches oh yeah, yeah, yeah, inspired by our friends over at The Drunk Guys Book Club podcast. So, they also discussed The Great Gatsby and sampled a cucumber beer, which sounded absolutely disgusting.

A: ewwwwwwwww…I think it was disgusting. If I remember correctly, they were not very impressed with it either.

W: I don’t think so. 

A: But our cucumber sandwiches are delicious. 

W: They are.

A: Not sure how they’ll pair with this, but the label says it goes you know it goes with everything, so we’ll see.

W: Much better than cucumber beer, I’m sure.

A: Ooooh and don’t forget the cucumber prosecco…Ahhhhh…Remember our trip to Delaware in November?

W: Oh, I do. Pretty shimmery stir-ins, but what Brainiac thought cucumber and prosecco should mix? And I love cucumber. Like a lot.

A: And prosecco. A lot. But you know the two should never ever be mixed together. 

W: Never. inaudible I think that is probably how they felt about beer and cucumber.  

A: Right, but for those of you wondering what in the heck we are talking about, Wendy got these she bought me this gift these little shimmering crystals that you stir into your favorite bubbly. 

W: It’s so pretty. 

A: It’s the thought that counted. We’ve still got a couple flavors to try, so right I’m not giving up. 

W: The other ones sound better. 

A: But it you know makes your drink all shimmery and pretty, I mean, which it did. 

W: It did.

A: It did; it was gorgeous. We even sent Drunk Guys a picture. 

W: We sent them a picture.

A: Yeah! But we were a bit inspired after listening to them you know on their podcast. They did such a fantastic summary and discussion of The Great Gatsby 

W: They’re hilarious. Anyway, as inspiration hit, mmmm, after a couple glasses of prosecco, we saw that one of the crystal flavors was cucumber …

A: …which we thought would be a very weird combo.

W: … but of course we had to try it.

A: Right, It’s like don’t stick your tongue on a freezer, so I do it.

W: Exactly! Inaudible.

A: Then you got to get your mom to unstick it. 

W: Inaudible…I have my own story about that but not with my tongue. I used my sister’s. 

A: Like I said, it was pretty but oh my god, it tasted so bad. Oh, I mean, I dumped mine straight down the sink. And I’ll have you guys know that I wasted good prosecco on that flipping nonsense!

W: It wasn’t that bad.

A: Oh Wendy, it was so gross and you know I don’t throw prosecco away unless I’m going to die.

W: True. But it was only a bit. Less than half a glass.

A: Which was actually good thinking on my part. I’d have been furious if I’d ruined a tall pour!

W: Well, you didn’t, so relax.

A: Ewwww... but now I’m worried about how these cucumber sandwiches. You think they’re going to pair? I’m just a little nervous. I mean I just remember that taste in my mouth. I’m going to let you try them first.

W: Amy, you love cucumber sandwiches.

A: I do, but I’m still so traumatized by cucumber prosecco. I mean I can’t get the taste out of my mouth, out of my sight, oh my god. Help me.  

W: That was months ago; I think you’ve been retraumatized. Oh boy … well, moving on …. So looking at it, you know it’s a kind-of salmon colored, I guess let me put it…yeah…I would say put it against the white. Yeah. Sa…I would call it salmon colored in the glass …It’s kind of this orangey-pink. Uh huh And I mean look at the perlage it’s very fine but very persistent. I have nice streams of bubbles.

A: Well, don’t forget to mention there was a nice mousse on the pour. Now mousse for our new listeners is that foamy top that dissipates after you pour. This one went well this one went away rather quickly.

W: Yours did; mine was good.

A:  But I agree, the perlage is very nice and as you said persistent. My streams are thin and well distanced. It’s really, really pretty and very sparkling. 

W: Well-distanced…I like that. It is pretty.

A: I knew you would…and I’d say the color is a pale pink, kind of like cooked salmon when I put it up against the white.

W: Oooh! That’s a great description! I mean, that’s, that’s perfect. What are you getting for smell though?

A: Hmmmm…You know; I don’t know. I mean It's very faint really…yeah…there’s really almost no smell … why did I not notice this earlier when we drank this before.

W: I think we were just drinking it and enjoying it. But yeah... It’s hard to pick anything out right away. You know it’s this it’s a very light smell.

A: Hold on…. I’m, I’m really starting to get berries …. Maybe strawberry? Strawberry?

W: Hmmm ...I feel like I need to stick my nose down into the glass. 

A: That’s okay. 

W: …. Oooh, I…you know what? I think I can pick out watermelon.

A: I’m not getting that yet, but now that I’ve labeled it, I’ve definitely got strawberries or just berries. I mean it’s just really grabbing me.

W: So…wow, this one is hard to smell isn’t it? Yeah!  I’m starting to get a hint of berries, but I can’t pull anything specific. I think we should just get to tasting.

A: Well, I know we’ve had this before, but you know like I said before it feels like the first time trying to pull out these flavors. 

W: I know it’s fun I agree. 

A: I think I guzzled it last time. I don’t think I even tasted it. It was just good. 

W: You mean like all the times before. Maybe I do agree. Oh this is a dry one! Hmmmm…Yep, and I can taste the watermelon, but it’s kind of like it’s taken on the flavor of the berries like if the watermelon and berries were like in the same bowl and they sort of like merged together. But the watermelon is the dominant flavor.

A: So I love anything strawberry or berries…watermelon related. And you can really feel those bubbles in your mouth, too, can’t you?

W: Oh definitely. It…The bubbles add to the tartness. Don’t you agree?

A: Yeah, there’s there’s definitely that watermelon, uh humm, berry, but it’s strawberry…I had strawberries for breakfast so.

W: Maybe you still. 

A: No because I brushed my teeth after…

W: …yeah but you have the memory of strawberries. 

A: Uh huh, I like to let it flow all around my tongue and especially underneath my frenum. Your what? You really can get some different flavors and sensations. Definitely the strawberry and the watermelon they definitely tickle me fancy. Makes me think of like a watermelon spritz maybe with a strawberry garnish.

W: I’m just thinking about what you said like what they heck is a? Like what did you say it was? 

A: Frenum. 

W: This better not be something. Did you just make that up?

A: No…Wendy, you’re a medic. 

W: No, I’m a teacher…yeah but you were a medic…yeah but that was like 100 years ago. 

A: The frenum is that thing that like tethers your tongue down in the front…like see…frenum. Inaudible….

W: Um I see…that’s not where my mind went. But you learn something new every day. 

A: You didn’t know that? Really!

W: Well now that you said it…I remember it. But you know how like you have all this information in your skull… my frenum…can we get back? Let’s see um but um…But this prosecco this prosecco rose….

A: Okay she, she’s pointing her finger at me like she’s wanting to snap at me. Let’s get back.

W: I would just like to say that this prosecco rose definitely has a light, clean flavor. Do you like my what is this the Price is Right. Inaudible

A:  I know. But My frenum and I love it. It’s just so good. Last word…I always want the last word.

W: Anyways, let’s get to our author … The incredible F. Scott Fitzgerald, who needs no introduction. 

A: Ummm mmmm absolutely not.

W: Or Fscott, according to the Drunk Guys.

A: That was such stupid fun on that podcast! 

W: It’s hilarious, but they cover it so thoroughly. 

A: I know

W: It’s so well worth the listen guys…yeah…so anyhow back to our…yes

A: So we…we Prosecco N Prose, …are going to stick with the basics and a few facts related to this novel. Fscott was born… 

W: Now I can’t think of it separately now

A: Now that now that I heard you say it. I totally forgot about it until you said it again. Oh my god. 

W: It was so funny though.

A: Oh my gosh. Fitzgerald was born in Saint Paul, MN in 1896 raised in New York, American novelist best known for his Jazz Age depictions. You know Jazz Age was a term he popularized. Uh hmmm The Great Gatsby, inspired by his own life and romance, was published in 1925 just before he turned 30.

W: Wow. But as popular as it is today, critics back then did not think it was as good as his earlier works, This Side of Paradise and The Beautiful and Damned. Have you read it or either of those.

A: I have not I have read a lot of his stuff, but no. 

W: Me too, so that’s on our tbrs now. Yes definitely. No The Great Gatsby was a commercial failure.

A: In fact, Fitzgerald himself was considered a failure when he died at the age of 44. So sad…so many stories…so many stories he had left to tell right?

W: I know. Now though, he is regarded as one of the greatest American writers of the 20th century agree and some literary critics consider The Great Gatsby the Great American Novel.

A: I mean this simple story of the American Dream and what it means to different people is 1), not as simple as it seems, uh huh, and 2) it has the ability to connect with so many readers just in so many ways.

W: True. Now many, including you, Amy, read this in high school, oh yeah, but I didn’t read it until a master’s level course actually. Really. No Back in the sticks of North Dakota? North Dakota? We didn’t read that. Maybe we were supposed to and I didn’t.

A: You were skipping class. No, you were a good girl.

W: I I didn’t skip class. I put books I wanted to read inside my book. Shut up. Yes, I did. 

A: You were anyways living in a dream world. 

W: Anyways…One more plug for our friends over at the Drunk Guys Book Club podcast if you can’t tell we do like them a lot…they had a discussion about whether this book should be read as a high school student or as an adult.

A: Oh, right right… and they talked about it being good, simple prose though… I mean the novel is really it’s just super easy to read and understand.

W: It is. You know it kind-of made me think of a Jazz Age reality show couldn’t you just see that?

A: Oh I remember you saying that…and you know you’re right you’re right. But the Drunk Guys you know didn’t really feel it was a high school book, right. … And we agree on some of those aspects. I mean I can see that. There are just things in the classic that without just without life experience, might be missed. Yeah. You know it’s kind of hard to grasp; especially if you haven’t had some major life experience yet.

W: Yeah, I think you know there are just scenes and situations, subtleties that are so important to the story and recognizing their importance comes it just comes with experience. I’m rambling, but you get what I mean. That’s okay…I’m eating. I noticed. Now you actually did teach this. Right? I mean so what’s the other side? Why should high schoolers read it?

A: Well…you know Fitz… 

W: I put you on the spot sorry.

A: That’s okay…no that’s okay, but you know like Fitzgerald, you know kind of like Hemingway, both of those gentlemen have such a show not tell type of writing you know it’s that writing style that really draws the reader into the book. Uh huh…It’s a good way to teach the show/don’t through his written text. Wouldn’t you agree? Yeah. If you think about it. Right. And the young ladies I used to teach they enjoyed it more than the young gentlemen.

W: Really? Yeah. That’s kind of interesting to me. Why do you think that?

A: Well, I mean if you think about it girls and boys mature differently, right? True…at different stages…even their growth patterns are different. Yeah. You know and I just think the girls um got or maybe cared more about the love story aspect a bit than the boys. You know. Okay. Boys at that age you know you know just aren’t that interested in a love story. Yeah…some are but most aren’t. I think it really boils down to that.

W: That makes sense. 

A: You can put me on the spot all the time. I mean that’s really what I remember. 

W: English teachers yeah, they preach the show don’t tell aspect of writing. 

A: Oh absolutely. I did too

W: inaudible I remember doing that with my with my littles… yeah as little as six years old in first grade. 

A: But you’ve got to show them what that looks like.

W: Exactly. Yeah yeah.

A: But even in the classroom, you have to show them what show means right…you can’t just tell them what show means. 

W: Cuz then you’re just doing the same thing. Right You know, Fitzgerald and Hemingway are two of the greats within the lost generation of writers category.

A: But it’s also like a great book to teach themes, motifs, symbols…

W: Yeah, they are actually very easy to spot. 

A:  Yes, so kind of like the American Dream…a huge one I taught was disillusionment, oh yeah…socioeconomic status, a huge one now would be racism, oh big time… and then like you know symbols would be like eyes, color symbology and so on…you know I’m just going to leave it at that.  Because I really don’t want to focus on those in this discussion today, but you know anyone wanting more on any of that, feel free to DM us on our Instagram, our handle is proseccnprose, or email us at prosecco.prose@gmail.com. We’d be happy to talk a bit more lit class if interested. Scrolls.

W: She would love it. ButI can also see it being a great piece to use for cross-curricular teaching you know, historical time and place…I know it’s not always used in high school but we use it a ton in elementary. 

A: Oh no…we do in high school too. Oh you do…yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it would be great geography. Talking geography and then if you want to take it a step further let’s do a golf unit in PE? Give Jordan a place in the curriculum. But you know just going back to the drunk guys, I can see both sides of the argument. 

W: And might I add, look at you finding a way to bring in golf! 

A: I know I know. I’ve inaudible played a lot of golf over the break 

W: So, we are going to just coming back to The Great Gatsby we’re going to give a very, very brief summary. So, if you want a much more in-depth summary, we strongly encourage you to check out the Drunk Guys Book Club Podcast. They are on all platforms.

A: Oh and FYI…They might not be exactly fans of the novel, when you listen to them like we are, but the commentary is fantastic. But really entertaining, so please just check them out. Also, if you’re listening to them on Apple podcast, rate and review them. 

W: Oh and don’t forget to tell them prosecco N prose sent you in that review. But yeah, we really enjoyed their discussion. We even made Josh and Ruffino listen to these guys in the car.

A: Oh yeah! OMG! You have got to try this dark chocolate with this prosecco. Frenum and I are in ROSECCO heaven! Oooh! Try it. 

W: Okay. I guess I better. So, the dark chocolate. You two seem pretty excited about it.

A: Oh my god. You’ll see. It’s a perfect, perfect pairing. Like this would be such a cute gift, Kirkland Signature Prosecco Rosé and dark chocolate.

W: OMG …. Wow. You’re not wrong. This is like divine. It’s what they’ll serve you at the pearly gates.  

A: I know! Heaven awaits. 

W: Heaven awaits. This is delicious. I don’t Now I don’t even want any of this other stuff.

A: But we’ve got to try it. but that’s part of the job. Now summarize. Come on. Quickly. I’m itching to discuss!

W: Chill…Okay, boss, but remember, you interrupted me! 

A: I know I have tangented probably for a good two or three minutes. Sorry.

W: You want me to put down this divine combination. 

A: Please…let’s move on.

W: Okay, you heard her guys…The Great Gatsby …. Nick Carraway, our narrator, I’m watching you…so good so good…leave some chocolate for me…tells the story of the summer he lived in Long Island next door to and got to know, befriended even? The great Jay Gatsby.

A: I think they were friends, of a sort. But I think you can give a few more details on that.

W: I wanted more chocolate. Okay, so Jay is in love with Daisy, uh huh who just happens to be Nick’s cousin and living across the water from Gatsby.

A: Um Hummmm….Convenient.

W: Very. And don’t eat all the chocolate.

A: There’s plenty, chillax

W: Anyway, Jay has been in love with Daisy ever since they met back in Louisville five years ago, but he was too poor for her to marry. Now that he is a wealthy man, he is hoping to win her back. 

A: But only one tiny issue he thinks he can overcome–Daisy is married to the hulkish brute of a man, Mr. Tom Buchanan. 

W: Can’t you just picture him?

A: Oh my inaudible…he’s so gross.  

W: He’s like one of those football players back in the day that didn’t even need pads. 

A: No, you know he was even wealthier man than Gatsby though. Stay on task.

W: Well, this is the lifestyle of the rich and famous. Hmmm it is. Gatsby throws parties all summer at his lavish mansion, hoping to attract Daisy from across the way.

A: Well he just wants her to just show up one night…I mean it’s his hope, but of course it doesn’t happen, she doesn’t even know he’s over there…so Gatsby gets Nick ah to kind of set up a meeting with Daisy, and they start spending summer afternoons together. It’s so clandestine.

W: It is inaudible…what a dummy…some of those scenes are so funny. So. And so much more to this story. Inaudible but I’m having fun. Nick learns about Gatsby’s life, how he got his money, how his life has been a quest to win Daisy’s love, but there are all these other lives and stories too …. Tom and his mistress, Myrtle; right her husband Wilson, by the way who knows Tom; he does Nick and his relationship with Jordan, the golfer a friend of Daisy’s. So lives connected, but also not.

A: yeah yeah…They definitely get woven together. I think we can add in some summary details if we need to later. But if you haven’t read it yet…just know it doesn’t end well…I mean there’s no happily ever after and people kick the can. I just want to get to tropes. Let’s move on.

W: Yeah, okay. Now, if you had the chance to listen to our prologue— the episode two weeks ago…

A: Oh yeah, And if you haven’t, feel free to go back and check it out. The prologue is just going to ive you the whole line-up of the proseccos and prose for the season.

W: A sort of lit and libation list.

A: I love lists.

W: But we talked about how we are going to discuss our prose this season.

A: And since every piece is a love story, we thought it would be fun to look at the love tropes in each one. Sometimes tropes get a bad rap, but there’s a reason writers use them — readers love them. They like the framework that guides you know through the story, and there’s a bit of anticipation in seeing how the author uses a particular trope to make it unique in their story.

W: We will also break down the story using Oliver Fox’s article “The 4 Pillars of Romance” from the Writers Write blog. Link in last episode.

A: And I will go ahead and put it in this one as well. Yep I’m hoping we can weave it all together.

W: Hopefully! Maybe this prosecco will help.

A: Well, It’s our excuse if it doesn’t. I got a really strong strawberry in the beginning, but now I’m getting a hint of raspberry. Taste it, It’s very fruit forward, and it was like all berries at first, but they are separating out a bit as it opens.

W: Well I read a review that mentioned strawberry cream actually yeah I didn’t see that and I’m getting a bit of creamy strawberry now. Honestly, now I had the strawberry before but I am getting the raspberry and inaudible…oh my goodness what and rhubarb. Just a hint. National harbor raining.  Makes me think of this rhubarb crisp my Mom used to make. So yum.

A: I remember how excited you got when you saw that on the menu when we were eating down at National Harbor.

W: Oh yeah! And it was so good. My Mom’s is amazing. You never see rhubarb on a menu. I should’ve taken a picture and showed her.

A: Guess we’ll have to go back.

W: I’m down for that. But back to our tropes …. We have the obvious love triangle ….

A: We actually have two of those …. The Tom, Daisy, Myrtle triangle and the Gatsby, Daisy, Tom triangle…. It’s It’s like a love dodecahedron!

W: A what?

A: Love dodecahedron. Basically, a love triangle with a lot more sides. This type of love shape typically lends itself to a more comedic story, not a tragedy, which this one kind of is. But this love dodecahedron leads us to another love trope we found, unrequited love, and this is what I used to teach because in this many-sided love triangle, all love is unrequited, and I think that’s you know pretty true here. Inaudible section

W: I would agree and we can discuss that a bit more in depth with our first pillar, the couple, in just a couple minutes. I want to introduce a love trope that might not always be considered in this classic work.

A: Which would be?

W: Star-crossed lovers.

A: oooh …Okay. That's a different approach.

W: now I want you to hear me out. Inaudible dodecahedron 

A: I’m Listening ... Just going to get me another piece of this delicious chocolate.

W: The trope…Star crossed lovers is often misused to mean lovers who are meant to be together, which is what I was thinking it meant. But it's actually that destiny has ruled against them being together. 

A: Well, yeah. I mean we’ve all read Romeo and Juliet. Right? I mean you read that in high school. I hope so. I read in my masters class. I know you know the story well. They’d be the classic example of this. Right?

W: Right… but I wasn’t making the connection that they actually are not meant to be together. But it’s a very common mistake. So, with star-crossed lovers, the relationship is thwarted by outside forces, often doomed from the start, probably because of these outside forces, usually refers to unlucky outcomes, and is toxic. 

A: Hmmmm …. I can definitely see that and this isn’t a usual approach to this book. But I like it. Way to go cheers. 

W: Thank you! I never even thought about it. Now a common version of star-crossed lovers is love above one’s station, and Daisy was definitely above Gatsby’s station. That’s why it became his mission to get wealthy, to win her back. And he was willing to do it by whatever means necessary. Think of the bootlegging.

A: But even though he did become wealthy, he was still below Daisy. Right Doomed by his low class start, he can become as wealthy as Daisy —

W: But he wasn’t. He didn’t achieve the same level of wealth as Daisy.

A: No no I guess not. On top of it wealth was tainted and not legal. His wealth is new and dirty and Daisy's is old and passed down honorably. Right?

W: Exactly. Just his wealth being new keeps him below Daisy’s station. Old money new money He’ll always be from a low family. Can’t ever change that. 

A: You can’t. And you mentioned unlucky outcomes. I think dying is a pretty unlucky outcome.

W: Yes, not very lucky for Gatsby. But I think Daisy being stuck with Tom, a philandering bully, ewww…isn't the greatest outcome either.

A: No, I agree. But just to touch back briefly with the unrequited love trope from our many-sided triangle …. Can you really call it a triangle if there are more than three sides?

W: well in math you can’t, but this is lit, so I’m going to say go for it.

A: There are a couple of one-sided, or unreciprocated loves in our multiple triangles right?

W: There are.

A: yeah, so we have Daisy rejected Gatsby way back in the beginning by marrying Tom, right and really, she rejects Gatsby again now in a sense.

W: Yeah. I kind of felt like Daisy was just playing a game. She liked the attention Gatsby gave her, but she had no intention of leaving her cushy life.

A: No I agree. And we can get a bit more into that with the pillars of romance, so im going to let that sit. but there is also the Tom and Myrtle's situation. Maybe those two are both unrequited. Not sure I’d call either of them in love with the other.

W: I don’t think I can either. Let’s talk about them in the context of pillar 1, the couple: lover and beloved.

A: Oh I’m so excited that were moving on…this is pillar 1: So I felt Tom and Myrtle were interchangeable as both the lover, the one pursuing the relationship, and trying to win the beloved …. And as the beloved, the pursued one, the one being wooed.

W: Yeah I can see that. Tom is after the thrill of the chase and Myrtle is in it for money, maybe even status you know yeah. Maybe they’re just both the lover?

A: Maybe, but as they are both the object you know the object of the other’s pursuit, that also lands them as the beloved.

W: Oh yeah. That makes sense. We also have the Tom — Daisy — Gatsby triangle. We have that one. Daisy is obviously the beloved and Tom and Gatsby are the lovers. Though I mean Tom isn’t exactly pursuing Daisy. They feel kind of like equals to me, I guess.

A: I did have a hard time calling Tom and Daisy beloved and lover from any angle. They really have just kind of settled for each other after all other options were off the table. They obviously love themselves, and I think Daisy tries to convince herself she loves Tom while also feeling like she might might still have feelings for Gatsby. Or at least you know the thought of loving Gatsby. That old, first love feeling. 

W: So, Gatsby certainly has you know Daisy quite built up in his mind. He’s created this fantasy of which kind of goes into this toxic think, and Fitzgerald just brings you into this show don’t tell. This fantasy how it will be if he can just show her what he’s become. She can just come to the party That he is her equal. He has wealth and status now. Gatsby’s changed, but not his love for her. He’s held on to that.

A: I’m just not convinced Daisy was ever truly in love with him. Even way back in the beginning. Infatuated, sure, but you know Daisy’s true love is money and status. But haven’t you seen Leonardo play Gatsby I know I know. And we see that in the end when Gatsby presses her to tell Tom she loves Gatsby and she can’t. And she hedges about her love for Tom.

W: Good point. Very good point I think that brings us to Pillar 2: okay okay The Obstacles: Rivals, Taboos, and Loved Ones — Oh My!

A: I wish you guys could see Wendy right now. Every good love story must have some obstacles to overcome. Maybe I do love love stories…maybe l like love stories. They’ve got to prove their commitment to each other. Prove they are willing to work for their relationship. Right

W: and the lover has more to prove And there are certainly obstacles in this story. We have a rival, Tom being Gatsby’s rival, just sticking with the Gatsby — Daisy love story.

A: Right, but mostly the obstacle is the taboo of their different social classes, which you talked about a bit in our star-crossed lover trope. Daisy was above Gatsby’s social class and remains above his social class. Gatsby really, he just can’t offer Daisy more status than she already has.

W: No he can’t and that also applies to the Tom — Myrtle love story, if you want to call it that. Yeah, She is definitely below Tom’s social and financial status.

A: Yeah, well Tom isn’t really interested in much more than conquest with Myrtle.  You know the conquest I do. Just like Daisy with Gatsby, he would never actually lower his status by choosing Myrtle over Daisy. I mean Would you? Fitzgerald really portrays her like a bimbo. Inaudible section

W: Probably not…but that’s not nice, Amy. I said bimbo I didn’t cuss. Inaudible lexicon. And No I don’t think he’d choose Myrtle over Daisy ever. I don’t think. I don’t thinks so either. Inaudible Let’s talk about Pillar 3: The Romantic Arc: Winning and Losing and .... And Winning Back Again? Maybe?

A: So most romances follow the plot line of lovers meet, lover falls for beloved, lover pursues beloved, lover then wins over beloved, our now couple gets closer, lover loses beloved — that’s where our obstacles come in — uh huh and then lover wins back, or fails to win back beloved. So let’s start with the Daisy — Gatsby Romantic Arc.

W: Well, this is their love story, so that’s a great place to start. You do that, and this time I’ll eat the chocolate. It really is such a yum pairing.

A: oh it is it is Go ahead, I’ve got a stash plus I’m digging these coconut chips. Oh yeah they’re inaudible So, Daisy and Gatsby met prior to the war and fell in love. I’m going to interrupt you inaudible…almond joys got nuts mounds don’t. salty salty…The obstacle of wealth oh yeeha where were we. we were talking about and status caused Gatsby to lose Daisy, and she married Tom. Rich brut Gatsby makes his millions, moves in across the bay, throws parties, reconnects with Daisy, and works to woo her back.

W: you know it does seem like he might be successful. Yeah He tells Nick, on the day they all drunkenly drive to the Plaza, how much drunk driving did they do in this book…you guys need to listen to the drunk guys to get all that…that Daisy is in love with him and that she’s going to tell Tom she wants to be with Gatsby.

A: Except Daisy doesn’t do that.

W: I feel like Gatsby pushed it too far when he also wanted her to tell Tom that she never loved him. Never loved tom. 

A: I think he did push her too far, but I don’t think Daisy had any of intention of leaving Tom for Gatsby. Right I mean while the romance may have rekindled, briefly, over the summer, I think Daisy had grown away from Gatsby and there really wasn’t any way Gatsby could have won her back. It just never works. 

W: And she valued the status she had too much to give it up for a life with Gatsby. Since we do have a love triangle, or however many sides this story had, let’s look at a couple of the other arcs. Daisy — Tom one.

A: Let’s see…okay, okay so Daisy settles for Tom when she can’t be with Gatsby. I don’t feel like I can say either of them fell for the other one though.

W: I agree, there didn’t seem to be much love there, at all, but I did feel like Tom sort of pursued Daisy in a couple of instances. He puffs up at the Gatsby party he attends and during that afternoon at the Plaza when Gatsby wants her to say she never loved Tom. Tom calls Gatsby out about being an Oxford man, about the company he keeps, what his “business” is …. Exposing Gatsby to Daisy as someone who is still beneath her social standing. 

A: That might be more of the Lover wins back the Beloved. Tom, in a sense, lost Daisy to Gatsby over the summer…you know they were bumping uglies in the mansion. And she does say she loves Gatsby and is going to leave Tom. That’s when Tom does all the puffing up to win her back. And it works. Daisy does crumble, and in the end, she and Tom end up back together. They settle for each other again, and move away…I’m sure Tom will have another triangle. I would love to write his story. 

W: You do that on your own time. 

A: Rude!

W: So then Tom — Myrtle. We don’t know exactly when they met.

A: Probably some romantic interlude when Tom came to get gas. Hey Baby come fill my tank, or let me fill yours. But actually… he really seems to have fallen for Myrtle because he does pursue her. Whisks her away to the city. Buys her everything she wants.

W: I feel like Myrtle is a bit flippant with him. She keeps him on his toes in a way Daisy doesn’t, and he likes that.

A: Rahrrrr! He does like the chase and while he has no intention of leaving Daisy for Myrtle, I don’t think he anticipated losing Myrtle. He’s flustered when George, her husband, says they are moving, and then actually cries when Myrtle is killed by Daisy. Which is pure irony.

W: Maybe Tom actually felt something for Myrtle.

A: Maybe… he did have a love-nest of an apartment for her

W: And bought her a dog

A: True. It did seem to be more than what he felt for Daisy. Human nature to want what you can’t have.

W: What about Myrtle — George? Want to touch on that?

A: Sure. This one was the saddest for me because George really does love Myrtle…I mean with all his heart and wants to give her everything, but he doesn’t have the means to do it.

W: If Tom would just sell him his car ….

A: Right. He could make some money and give Myrtle a better life, the life he feels she deserves, the life he knows she wants.

W: George loses Myrtle when he realizes she’s having an affair, which he first thinks is with their neighbor Michaelis.

A: But when he loses her for good, you know when she is killed, he comes to the conclusion her affair is with Gatsby and that leads us to our final pillar, Pillar 4: The Lover’s Sacrifice.

W: Right. How our lover faces the challenges that stand between them and their goal of winning back their beloved.

A: And there are three reasons they might not achieve their goal. 1) They weren’t strong enough to achieve it. 2) They realize it’s the wrong goal and move on. Or 3) They quit at the final test, which proves their goal wasn’t as important as they claimed it was.

W: In their final test, the Lover makes one last effort, a selfless act or gesture that will not benefit them, may even hurt them, but they believe it will help their beloved and show them just how important they are to the Lover.

A: Since we left it on George, let’s wrap up his lover’s sacrifice, which actually, if you think about it, came too late as Myrtle was already dead.

W: Well, he does lock her in the house with plans to leave in the morning. He’s going to give up his business and go west, or whatever.

A: Yeah, I suppose. But when he kills Gatsby and then himself, I can’t help but think it was because he wasn’t strong enough to achieve his goal.

W: Maybe he just wasn’t given the chance. Myrtle was taken before he could prove it.

A: Good point. Now Gatsby …. He didn’t achieve his goal, and I’m not sure he realized it. But as readers, I think we see it’s the wrong goal, and he needs to move on. 

W: Even Nick tells him he should leave. Disappear.

A: Right. He took the rap for Daisy, said he was driving the car. He even waited around, lurking by the house, ready to jump in if Tom did anything to Daisy. And then pays the ultimate sacrifice. With his life.

W: That was not his intent. I think he really thought his last test would finally, finally bring him Daisy.

A: Maybe…real quickly one more thing on Myrtle and George. Myrtle was willing to sacrifice her marriage to George. She did run out to try and stop what she believed was Tom. She didn’t want to leave with George. She wanted to stay and carry on with Tom, at the very least. If she couldn’t have him outright.

W: But her sacrifice was also her life. What a tragedy this story is!

A: Oh Myrtle…you loved too hard. Death was your punishment for breaking poor George’s heart.

W: She can’t hear you…oh one who loves to talk in second person. What about Tom?

A: Fftt! Tom had no goal…well, maybe he did, in a way. … A goal to keep Daisy and Myrtle, … but he made no sacrifices, unless losing Myrtle was a sacrifice, but he still had Daisy.

W: It’s hard to say Tom was truly in love with anyone enough to make a sacrifice.

A: Only himself and his status, … or his dignity, I suppose. Which was why he had to stake his claim to Daisy with Gatsby. If Daisy leaves him, it would tarnish his reputation.

W: So without sacrifice, Tom kind of did achieve his goal, keeping Daisy. Not losing her to Gatsby. Except …. Wait a minute ….

A: What?

W: Maybe Myrtle was his sacrifice. For him to keep Daisy.

A: Ooooh, interesting… Possibly. I don’t know, though. He’s more concerned about protecting his and Daisy’s name. Everything else is just collateral damage.

W: Yeah, maybe so. I think for Daisy, her sacrifice is true happiness. She did love Gatsby way back when they first met, and I think she did fall back in love with him that summer, but she wasn’t strong enough to leave Tom and their life or their status to be with Gatsby. 

A: And she and Tom also had a child. It was just easier to stay.

W: I suppose she feels happy enough. Money can buy some joy for her.

A: For a time, sure. I think both Tom and Daisy just settled and both of their happinesses are part of their sacrifice.

W: I think that’s definitely one way to look at it. Well, according to Oliver Fox’s “4 Pillars of Romance,” The Great Gatsby is a true romance.

A: Thanks Oliver Fox from the Writers Write blog/website. Great article. It’s kind of fun to break it down that way. 

W: A little fun diversion from our typical book discussions.

A: There’s never a wrong way to discuss prose, in my book! Such a classic piece of work.

W: Agreed. And what about our Kirkland Signature Prosecco Rosé? Is it a classic?

A: I mean, for me it kind of is. And it has gone really good with all of our nibbles, the nuts, the cheese, the coconut ….

W: Even the cucumber sandwiches.

A: It is a good palate cleanser, so that does make it a very pairing friendly prosecco. Hey, I just noticed we have that millesimato term again on the label. It says Millesimato 2020. 

W: Oh yeah, the vintage designation. It is basically the year of the grape harvest, so at least 85% of the same grapes from the same year.

A: Oh yeah. I remember you explaining that in a previous episode.

W: But I did a little digging, and it’s kind of a marketing gimmick since prosecco is harvested, produced, and then traded in just a few months. Prosecco, as we’ve mentioned before, isn’t something that’s aged, but millesimato is a term that’s only used on sparkling white wines. 

A: Interesting.

W: Also, I found this interesting, since you are training me to open the bottles. Prosecco is harder to open than champagne because there is less pressure in the bottle pushing on the cork to help you open it.

A: Is that so? Or just another excuse for why you can’t share in popping the cork?

W: No! It’s true!

A: Okay, okay. … I have to say, I’m quite impressed with the perlage of this one. I still have bubbles going. It’s persistent. I’m sort of feeling the burp factor is about at a 3, 3 and a quarter.

W: Lovely But you’re right, definitely have bubbles going right till the end. You know, we talked about it having a clean smell, I’m actually getting a bit of a soapy smell now. Not in taste, just in smell.

A: Let me smell…You know … I am getting a soapy smell. Maybe that’s why they said to pair it with fatty foods. Like Joy…It cuts the grease. You know, this would pair well with buttery garlic bread. Not the crusty kind, the soft doughy chewy kind.

W: I think you, we, just love bread and think it pairs with everything.

A: Truth. But the best, absolute best pairing is the dark chocolate. You guys have got to get a bottle of this prosecco, only $6.99, and a nice big bar of dark chocolate, grab a book, maybe this one or one of the others we are doing this season, and curl up and just enjoy. So, so good.

W: I agree. The best pairing of the bunch. Rating?

A: I’d say a 3.8… 3.9 with the chocolate.

W: I give it a 3.9.

A: We’d love it if you guys gave us a rating. 

W: And maybe even a review.

A: It’s so easy to do on Apple and means so much to us.

W: Thanks in advance!

A: We look forward to you joining us in two weeks, for another classic, the short love story, “Eveline” by James Joyce paired with Tesoro Della Regina Prosecco Rosé. I’ll put a link to a free read in our notes. 

Cheers!